‘Huge, sudden pile-on’: ABC boss shocked

ABC chairman Kim Williams has elaborated on his controversial criticism of Joe Rogan, claiming the megastar podcaster did “an enormous amount of damage” during the Covid pandemic in 2020 and 2021.

“LOL WUT,” was Mr Rogan’s response, on social media, to Mr Williams’ remarks about him at the National Press Club yesterday.

The ABC boss had described Mr Rogan as a “deeply repulsive” figure who took advantage of “people’s vulnerabilities”.

Mr Williams had been asked about “the Rogan effect”, and how exactly the podcaster had managed to capture what has been dubbed “the bro market” in the United States.

“I am not a consumer or enthusiast of Mr Rogan and his work,” Mr Williams said.

“I think that people like Mr Rogan prey on people’s vulnerabilities. They prey on fear. They prey on anxiety. They prey on all of the elements that contribute to uncertainty in society, and they entrepreneur fantasy outcomes and conspiracy outcomes.

“I personally find it deeply repulsive.”

Mr Williams went on to express his “dismay” that “this can be a source of public entertainment when it’s really treating the public as plunder for entrepreneurs that are really quite malevolent.”

Harsh words, there.

Mr Williams spoke to ABC radio in Melbourne this morning. Host Raf Epstein asked him to speak further about his views on Mr Rogan.

“I’m aware of his ubiquitous presence in many of the elements of podcast land. I wasn’t aware, until yesterday, that he had three billion followers; I might have to admit to having some scepticism as to that number,” said Mr Williams.

“But he’s obviously been a very influential character in America.”

It’s unclear where Mr Williams got that “three billion” figure, or whether he was perhaps exaggerating for rhetorical effect.

Mr Rogan has about 14.5 million subscribers on Spotify, and his podcast The Joe Rogan Experience averages about 190 million downloads per month. He has a further 17 million or so subscribers on YouTube. Hardly in the billions, but also, pretty much unrivalled.

Mr Epstein pointed out that about 50 million people had watched Donald Trump’s pre-election interview with Mr Rogan, recorded and posted in late October. The closest parallel for Kamala Harris, Mr Trump’s opponent, was her interview with the Call Her Daddy podcast.

“Are you worried that podcasts that don’t provide the scrutiny that you might get on the ABC, that they are the future, and that we really are going out of fashion?” he asked.

“Well, I would hope that the best the best antidote to misinformation and, more alarmingly, disinformation-” Mr Williams began.

“And we should clarify both those terms. Misinformation relates to false information that is spread often due to ignorance or mistake or in good faith, which actually is not done with an intention to deceive people. But disinformation is quite the opposite. It’s the deliberate spreading of false information.

“I think the best antidote is an abundance of truthful information, and validated information, and verified information.”

The ABC boss’s beef with Mr Rogan appears to be rooted in his remarks to listeners during the Covid pandemic, and indeed in its aftermath, when he expressed scepticism about vaccines for the virus.

The Covid vaccines were widely available to Americans, for free, from April of 2021 onwards. About half of the country’s 1.2 million deaths from the virus happened after that, and the unvaccinated were overwhelmingly more likely to die.

“I mean, Joe Rogan did an enormous, in my view, an enormous amount of damage back in 2020 and 2021, when he was particularly virulent in many of his remarks about vaccinations,” said Mr Williams.

“Vaccinations for the young, in particular. And he was taken on by Anthony Fauci, very severely, in a very famous public stoush.”

Dr Fauci, a long-serving director of America’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and one of the government’s top advisers during the pandemic, became an object of scorn on the political right, and particularly among those who opposed health restrictions.

“I don’t think people have unlimited license to say what they want, simply because they believe something to be so,” argued Mr Williams.

“We must perform to higher standards. We must perform to standards that have regard to facts. We have to perform the standards that actually have scientific validity.

“I think Joe Rogan at times, not uniformly, but at times, breaks those rules.”

Mr Williams went on to lament the hostile response he’d received from Mr Rogan’s fans after his remarks at the Press Club.

“What fascinates me is you say something negative about Joe Rogan – and I have been swarmed with the most unbelievably vicious responses. I got one this morning that said that I should stay in my lane and watch out, and you read it and you think, ‘What are you saying to me?’” he said.

“Where is this super sensitivity deriving from? You make a comment in response to a legitimate question from a journalist. You answer it concisely and give an honest answer in terms of what your own perception of Mr Rogan is. And suddenly I get this huge pile-on from people in the most aggressive way, saying that I have a warped out look on the world, that I am an embarrassment to our nation, that I am in some way unhinged, that that I am a supreme example of of of arrogance and disconnection with Australian society.

“I have to say to you, Raf, I just don’t get it.”

“Do you think they’ve got glass jaws?” asked Mr Epstein.

“Their whole body is made of glass. How can people react in such a, frankly, demonic fashion? I really stand back in disbelief,” said Mr Williams.

Asked whether podcasts were “a threat” to the ABC, he answered in the affirmative.

“Of course they’re a threat to the ABC. I think they’re a threat to all views that are contrary into their own,” said Mr Williams.

“If they represent the newfound mainstream, our society is has deep troubles, and the only response that is available is to back education and knowledge.

“Knowledge is the is the antidote to this kind of hysterical rubbish.”